Anderson Cooper spotlighted The Atlantic's Graeme Wood's thorough article on ISIS on his Wednesday program. Cooper wondered, "President Obama...said we're at war with people who have perverted Islam. The question, though, is: is that really true?" The anchor cited Wood's piece to cast cold water on the President's claim: "The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers...but the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam."
Cooper also asked Wood directly about Mr. Obama's statement: "So when President Obama says...that they have perverted Islam, is that true?" The writer gave a blunt reply, and underlined that the terrorist group's interpretation of the Koran and other early Islamic texts is completely legitimate: [video below]
GRAEME WOOD, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Well, you know, he doesn't really have the authority to say that. I don't think any non-Muslim, really, has the authority to say that, or to convince others that that's the case. What a non-Muslim certainly can say objectively is whether the practices of ISIS have precedent within the long and often contradictory history of Islam, and that's certainly the case. The things that they're doing don't come from nowhere. They come from elements of Islam that, for the vast, vast majority of Muslims around the world, are either in abeyance; they're not applied right now; or they're just not interested in doing things like stoning adulterers.
The anchor led the segment with his "is that really true" question about the President's statement and his citation from Wood's article, "What ISIS Really Wants." Before turning to his guest, Cooper complimented The Atlantic editor for his "fascinating article, and I urge people to read it." He first asked, "You say that the nature of ISIS is more like a dystopian alternate reality. Explain what you mean. You kind of compare it to like a David Koresh or a Jim Jones." Wood outlined the importance of apocalyptic Islamic prophecies for the group:
WOOD: Yeah. I would call it a death cult. What ISIS believes is that it is involved in the production of the end times. It believes that...it's directly involved in creating the stages of an apocalyptic future that will bring about the fulfillment of prophecy.
ANDERSON COOPER: And unlike al Qaeda, it's crucial therefore for ISIS to actually control territory to create this caliphate.
WOOD: That's right. They believe that if they control territory – if they act properly – then they can fulfill particular elements of prophesy that involve a clash with Crusader armies. And this is a very important part of Obama's remarks today, because he correctly noted that we want to avoid fulfilling the narrative that they want to push forward – which is a clash between civilizations – because that is a necessary part of that prophecy.
COOPER: A clash between Islam and – and the West.
WOOD: Specifically that – yes.
The CNN anchor spent much of the segment on ISIS's targeting of Muslims who don't live up to the homicidal organization's standards of Islam:
COOPER: What's interesting, though, too, about your article – and it's something, I mean, others have written about as well – but it was just really well spelled out in your article – is the sheer volume of...people who ISIS labels apostates. I mean, it's not just Christians, as we think – it's not just Westerners – it's 200 million Muslims – Shias.
WOOD: Yes, that's right. I mean, ISIS, in some ways, actually treats Christians much better than most Muslims. They believe that Christians, for example, don't need to be killed. They can be enslaved. They can live under the Islamic state without adopting Islam, if they pay a particular tax. Whereas with Muslims, they're very, very particular about who qualifies as a proper Muslim, and who is, in their mind, perverting the faith. And those people, they believe, need to be killed.
COOPER: And the justification for killing anyone who's Shia, for instance, is that they believe that's a more modern – or they call them the 'moderns' – that it's a more modern interpretation of the Koran – which, as you wrote, therefore, means that the – the original interpretation of the Koran was somehow incorrect, which...is something they can't tolerate anybody saying.
WOOD: That's right. They view any innovation – they call it bid'ah, which means, kind of, a reprehensible innovation. Any of this is a perversion of the faith, and if you reject the inerrancy of the Koran, the hadith, and the actions of the earliest followers of the prophet Mohammed, then you are, in their mind, rejecting Islam. And this is a kind of pronouncement that historically, Muslims have been very reluctant to make. It's just...not something that they do. It's considered perilous, even to their own souls, because if you pronounce excommunication toward another Muslim – and that person is actually a Muslim – then, actually, that makes you a non-Muslim, too. That's a really dangerous game for someone who believes these things to take, but ISIS does it.
COOPER: They're so convinced in their own interpretation that they believe they are right.
WOOD: Yes, absolutely – and when I spoke to ISIS supporters, they would openly say, oh, this guy who works for the Jordanian regime – he is not a Muslim. This is a person who is someone who prays five times a day – but purely by the action of working for a government; or drinking repeatedly; or doing things that implicitly showed that, in their minds, this person had rejected clear elements of Islamic law – that's enough.
COOPER: Voting...having a beer; having been clean-shaven – things like that.
WOOD: Yes, in certain circumstances, when they believe that it shows that they have rejected the inerrancy of the Koran and the hadith.
Later in the segment, Wood highlighted ISIS's obsession with Islamic eschatology:
COOPER: But when you say it's a death cult, it's solely geared towards the end times – their own apocalyptic vision?
WOOD: Well, the apocalypse is a very important, frequently-occurring element of their rhetoric. So they believe this is going to happen. And they also believe, by the way, that before they finally achieve victory – when Jesus comes back and comes to their aid – that they will actually almost be diminished to nothing. They believe that there will be only 5,000 of their fighters left; and then, Jesus comes and saves the day for them.
COOPER: They believe Jesus will save the day for them?
WOOD: Yes – at Jerusalem – that Jesus will comes to – to Earth at Damascus, and then go to their aid when they're encircled by the forces of an anti-messiah-type figure in Jerusalem; and then, Jesus will come to their aid and save them.
COOPER: Again, it's a fascinating article, and really just touched the surface. But I urge people to read it – The Atlantic. It's really just fascinating. Graeme, thank you so much. Graeme Wood – fascinating stuff.
