National Review contributor and Manhattan Institute President Reihan Salam joined The Dispatch’s Jonah Goldberg on Saturday’s edition of The Chris Wallace Show to go head-to-head with New York Times podcaster Lulu Garcia-Navarro and fellow podcaster Kara Swisher on the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion movement and former Harvard President Cluadine Gay in a segment that featured plenty of fireworks.
Wallace asked Salam, “has in effect, the country moved on from the so-called racial reckoning we were all talking about after the murder of George Floyd?”
Our discussion of DEI on The Chris Wallace Show. pic.twitter.com/3OqZXs5Xr7
— Jonah Goldberg (@JonahDispatch) January 6, 2024
Salam replied that so-called “racial reckoning involved smuggling in certain really contentious, ideological ideas that weren't ultimately about diversity, but rather were about imposing ideological uniformity.”
On the matter of DEI bureaucracies, Salam argued, “What is really obnoxious about them is that they actually don't respect all sorts of diversity, including viewpoint diversity, including the fact that, look, in some cases you have groups that are over-represented, and that can be okay. You know, the point that J.D. Vance was making about the Dallas Mavericks is that it can be good and healthy and reasonable in some domains to have—”
At that point, Garcia-Navarro interrupted and, in Spanish, accused Salam of being “Ridiculo, ridiculo.” Swisher concurred, “What she said.”
Undeterred, Salam continued, “You can say it's ridiculous, you can make that assertion, but fundamentally the fact that, you know, I am one second generation Asian-American on a panel of four, I am massively, massively over-represented, but I think it’s reasonable to say you’re going to judge people based on their merits and when you’re looking at organizations that count, that matter—”
Interrupting again, Garcia Navarro angrily declared:
But this, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. This is the burden and I can't tell you how infuriating I find it. This is the burden that always comes with representation. The idea is that because you are a person of color, suddenly it is -- you are only there because it is some noblesse oblige, it is because some white guilt put you there, because there was some DEI initiative and you can't win either way you look at it. I mean, what infuriates me is you look at the whole Claudine Gay thing and everyone's talking about DEI. This woman cannot win or lose. Either-- if she is there –
As Salam claimed he was happy to talk about Gay, Garcia-Navarro demanded that he stop interrupting her while she was interrupting him, “Let me finish. If she’s there, it is because of DEI, they put her there because she is black. If she loses and they kick her out it’s because she was never good enough to be there in the beginning and she was-- you can't win in this situation.”
Goldberg then chimed in to say that it was actually Garcia-Navarro and Gay’s supporters who were being the hypocrites, “You can't celebrate and tout that someone was hired and it’s a wonderful thing to expand diversity and Harvard went full tilt talking about how great it was to hire the first black woman and then say all of a sudden when she’s caught—”
Garcia-Navarro interrupted yet again to add, “the first black person, it wasn’t even the first black woman, it was the first black person—”
Goldberg claimed he didn’t care and kept going, “The point is, is that she got caught obviously plagiarizing and that is—those are the facts—”
After Garcia-Navarro tried to dismiss the accusations as “ideological” and “very well-funded,” Goldberg correctly noted, “The motives of the attack don't change the fact she plagiarized.”
As the segment went on, Salam would ridicule the idea that Gay represents some sort of victim class and note Harvard’s free speech ratings tumbled to dead last under her watch. Meanwhile, Swisher lamented that incompetent men still have jobs and are unquestioned while Goldberg cited Gay’s Congressional testimony to add that inclusion apparently doesn’t Jews.
Here is a transcript for the January 6 show:
CNN The Chris Wallace Show
1/6/2023
10:29 AM ET
CHRIS WALLACE: Reihan, has in effect, the country moved on from the so-called racial reckoning we were all talking about after the murder of George Floyd?
REIHAN SALAM: I think there's a broad sense that that racial reckoning involved smuggling in certain really contentious, ideological ideas that weren't ultimately about diversity, but rather were about imposing ideological uniformity.
When you’re looking at DEI bureaucracies, what is really obnoxious about them is that they actually don't respect all sorts of diversity, including viewpoint diversity, including the fact that, look, in some cases you have groups that are over-represented, and that can be okay. You know, the point that J.D. Vance was making about the Dallas Mavericks is that it can be good and healthy and reasonable in some domains to have—
[crosstalk]
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO: Ridiculo, ridiculo.
KARA SWISHER: What she said.
SALAM: You can say it's ridiculous, you can make that assertion, but fundamentally the fact that, you know, I am one second generation Asian-American on a panel of four, I am massively, massively over-represented, but I think it’s reasonable to say you’re going to judge people based on their merits and when you’re looking at organizations that count, that matter—
GARCIA-NAVARRO: But this, excuse me, excuse me
SALAM: --that high performance organizations—
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Excuse me, excuse me. This is the burden and I can't tell you how infuriating I find it. This is the burden that always comes with representation. The idea is that because you are a person of color, suddenly it is -- you are only there because it is some noblesse oblige, it is because some white guilt put you there, because there was some DEI initiative and you can't win either way you look at it. I mean, what infuriates me is you look at the whole Claudine Gay thing and everyone's talking about DEI. This woman cannot win or lose. Either-- if she is there –
SALAM: I'm happy to talk about Claudine Gay, please.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Let me finish. If she’s there, it is because of DEI, they put her there because she is black. If she loses and they kick her out it’s because she was never good enough to be there in the beginning and she was-- you can't win in this situation.
JONAH GOLDBERG: Yeah, but –
GARCIA-NAVARRO: And it is infuriating as a person of color to constantly have this cudgel put on our heads.
GOLDBERG: I get the argument that you can't win but you also can't have it both ways. You can't celebrate and tout that someone was hired and it’s a wonderful thing to expand diversity and Harvard went full tilt talking about how great it was to hire the first black woman and then say all of a sudden when she’s caught—
GARCIA-NAVARRO: The first black person, it wasn’t even the first black woman, it was the first black person—
GOLDBERG: Okay, I don’t care. The point is, is that she got caught obviously plagiarizing and that is—those are the facts that—this massive--
GARCIA-NAVARRO: It was ideological, very well-funded –
GOLDBERG: The motives of the attack don't change the fact she plagiarized.
