MSNBC chief legal correspondent and host of The Beat, Ari Melber joined author and newsletter publisher Andrew Sullivan on the season premiere of HBO’s Real Time with Bill Maher on Friday where he struggled to defend his employer against Sullivan’s charge that the network is simply “propaganda all the time.”
Sullivan was lamenting the direction of the country, Donald Trump, and the Democratic Party when he declared, “I think what Trump set in motion and what the divisions of the country has done and what the Democrats have done in the last four years which is respond to Trump by going even further to the left means that we are losing the legitimacy of the system and that is the critical thing.”
He further claimed “When you lose that core legitimacy, you lose democracy, that's where we are really going to lose our democracy because we don't believe in it anymore. And you can see that the results of that—the way that this works is you start disbelieving all the institutions and then you say ‘who do I want?’ and you want a strongman.”
Melber wasn’t thrilled with Sullivan’s analysis, “I think you make fair points, Andrew, but you sound a little bit both sides-y. I don’t know if that’s on purpose or not.”
After Sullivan retorted he takes that “as a compliment,” Melber continued:
There’s absolutely problems with the Democratic Party and the overreaction to Trump, we just spoke about the [Colorado] ballot case and its thinness and we cover that all the on the news, but there’s not equivalence here on the problems you just referred to, there’s not equivalents of political violence, there’s not an equivalence of responding to court cases, Bush v. Gore was very controversial, but there was no violent response and there was not any mainstream response from Democrats about overthrowing the certification.
There’s a lot going on there, but while it was nice that Melber threw cold water on the Colorado case, there is absolutely left-wing political violence whether it was the BLM Riots of 2020, airport traffic blockers, or recent unruly behavior from Hamas sympathizers at the White House. It is true there was no analogous attempt in 2001 by certain Democrats to overturn the election in Congress, but there was in 2005 and certain Republicans cited that as precedent to justify their 2021 actions not knowing there’d be a riot.
Melber also ignored how the progressives, including ones at his own network, continue to delegitimize institutions, just like Sulivan claimed.
He also lamented that Trump represents a “complete rejection of the policy democracy that you want because they didn't even have a platform. So, he's saying it's just me you don't know what I'm going to do. Just vote for me, no platform and you've got a whole Republican Party that's basically codifying that.”
Sullivan wasn’t about to let the suggestion that inattention to policy is unique to Trump go unanswered, “You know would be good at MSNBC, is if you actually did think about both sides and weigh the arguments and make constructive arguments against that side while respecting them. You don't do that, it's propaganda all the time and by denying any—”
Melber tried to defend himself, claiming “What you just said described—what you just said described my show. I had Trump lawyer on this week, I’ve had Steve Bannon on my show, I’ve had Trump White House officials.”
After some crosstalk, Maher chimed into to playfully implore his guests to play nice.
Here is a transcript for the January 19 show:
HBO Real Time with Bill Maher
1/19/2023
10:32 PM ET
ANDREW SULLIVAN: I think what Trump set in motion and what the divisions of the country has done and what the Democrats have done in the last four years which is respond to Trump by going even further to the left means that we are losing the legitimacy of the system and that is the critical thing.
When you lose that core legitimacy, you lose democracy, that's where we are really going to lose our democracy because we don't believe in it anymore.
BILL MAHER: Damn right.
SULLIVAN: And you can see that the results of that—the way that this works is you start disbelieving all the institutions and then you say “who do I want?” and you want a strongman—
MAHER: Right.
SULLIVAN: --You want someone to come in and cut all the knots, this is a classic case of how you lose a democracy and he's almost certainly going to be there, he's going to win this election almost certainly and quite well.
ARI MELBER: I think you make fair points, Andrew, but you sound a little bit both sides-y. I don’t know if that’s on purpose or not.
SULLIVAN: I take that as a complement.
MELBER: Well, then you've just been complimented—
SULLIVAN: Thank you.
MELBER: -- in your mind, but there’s absolutely problems with the Democratic Party and the overreaction to Trump, we just spoke about the ballot case and its thinness and we cover that all the on the news, but there’s not equivalence here on the problems you just referred to, there’s not equivalents of political violence, there’s not an equivalence of responding to court cases, Bush v. Gore was very controversial, but there was no violent response and there was not any mainstream response from Democrats about overthrowing the certification. Al Gore actually showed up on Jan 6th, remember it was that date, and certified it.
So, there isn’t a both side-ism to this decay and what Trump does, and I agree at times, he may draw his opponents into messy, dumb feuds but he is the one banking on a cynicism, an attack on democracy and on complete rejection of the policy democracy that you want because they didn't even have a platform. So, he's saying it's just me you don't know what I'm going to do. Just vote for me, no platform and you've got a whole Republican Party that's basically codifying that.
SULLIVAN: You know would be good at MSNBC, is if you actually did think about both sides and weigh the arguments and make constructive arguments against that side while respecting them. You don't do that, it's propaganda all the time and by denying any--.
MELBER: What you just said described—what you just said described my show. I had Trump lawyer on this week, I’ve had Steve Bannon on my show, I’ve had Trump White House officials—
SULLIVAN: I watch MSNBC-- I watch MSNBC and the both sides—
MELBER: Right, so, you're describing the goal that I'm achieving, I take that as a complement.
SULLIVAN: In your mind.
MAHER: Let’s be nice. It's the first show of the year, let’s not tear each other's face off.
MELBER: Hey Bill, Bill—
MAHER: Yes.
MELBER: We learned-- we learned our media criticism from you, dad.
