After NBC's Andrea Mitchell finished her glowing set-up piece, Lauer pressed Clinton from the left about public financing of campaigns and wondered if lobbying money should be taxed so more money could be spent on charities but never mentioned the name Norman Hsu.
Lauer: "I'm curious. When you think about giving and going back to money for a second. When you think about giving and making a difference do you ever think about how much money is in politics? In political contributions, in lobbying, and wouldn't it be a great idea if we took, even half of that money, that's spent by corporations and special interests trying to influence politics and, and dedicated it to changing the world for the better?"
Clinton: "It would be a good idea but in order to do it, we either have to have free television advertising or publicly-financed campaigns."
Lauer: "Or a little of both. What about a lobbying tax? If you're gonna spend a certain amount of money lobbying for a special interest cause, you have to match that amount of money by giving it to help education or to fight AIDS?"
Clinton: "Well that's not, that's not a bad idea."
Lauer also brought up the GOP-harming Larry Craig sex scandal but didn't ask the former president if his trysts would be harmful to the former First Lady's campaign:
Lauer: "Let me ask you about Senator Larry Craig. He resigned last week, amid a scandal. He plead guilty to disorderly conduct charges stemming from a gay sex sting in an airport in Minneapolis. Now his office says he may want to rethink that resignation. First, let's start there. Can he survive? Based on what you know about Washington and what you know about political scandals, can he survive?"
Clinton: "Well he's legally entitled to the rest of his term. So unless-"
Lauer: "But for all intents and purposes can he survive?"
Clinton: "Unless they vote to expel him, which they can do, that's a judgment, you know, that's something that he and the Republicans will have to work out."
Lauer: "Were, were you surprised at how quickly key Republicans pushed him overboard? People like John McCain and Hoekstra and, and Mitch McConnell and, and Mitt Romney?"
Clinton: "Well maybe he was carrying a little of the baggage for, you know, they, they did, they decided to say nothing about Senator Vitter and then they decided to say everything about Senator Craig..."
Lauer did press Clinton about Hillary's low likability rating but that only served to send Bill into a vast-right-wing conspiracy-style rant against the GOP's "Swift boat tactics."
Lauer: "Let me, let me ask you about politics now. And, and there's a poll that just came out in Iowa that, that deals with your wife. And when, when people there were asked about who they respect most and who they trust most in the areas of leadership, handling of Iraq, protecting against terrorism, Hillary Clinton ranked tops out of four candidates. When they asked the people in Iowa, who do you like? She ranked fourth out of four candidates. Now this has got to be something that puzzles you, not only as a keen political observer, but as a husband. Why do you think, when asked on a number of occasions, people simply say they're not sure if they like Hillary Clinton?"
Clinton: "Well because she's the only person running, who for 15 years, has been regularly hit by the Swift boat tactics of the Republicans."
The following is the complete transcript of the entire interview as it occurred on the September 5 edition of the "Today" show:
Matt Lauer: "President Clinton's new book is Giving: How Each Of Us Can Change The World. President Clinton good to have you back in our studio. Good morning."
Bill Clinton: "Thanks, Matt."
Lauer: "I want to go through a political potpourri in a second but let's start with your book. And, and I think that when people see the title they're gonna say, 'Well giving, I mean we can all write a check, we can change the world.' But I'm struck by how much of this book you spend talking not about giving financially but giving of your time or your talents."
Clinton: "Yeah, what I tried to do in this book was to say whatever your age, whatever your income group, and whatever your time availability or whatever you know, whatever talents you have, everybody can do something. And there's an explosion of giving around the world that has the capacity, really, to change things in a way that private citizens have never done before."
Lauer: "And, and on a one-on-one basis, there's a section in the book and there's some examples of this, where you talk about giving the gift of reconciliation and new beginnings. In other words, mend a fence, you know, settle a dispute with someone you've been fighting with. Do you have personal experience with that? What inspired you to write that aspect of the book?"
Clinton: "Well I think my long friendship with Nelson Mandela started me thinking about what a unique gift it is. I mean he gave a gift to a country. He showed a country how he could get over 27 years in prison. Invite not only his jailers to his inauguration but his persecutors into his government. And basically that's what we're all gonna have to do to get through this new and unprecedented time. So politically it's a good thing. But I was, also, profoundly moved because of my continuing involvement with Rwanda with the things I've seen there. I'll never get over meeting a woman who lost her husband and six children. They were literally killed right in front of her. They, the people who attacked them thought she was dead. She woke up and instead of living her life in vengeance she started adopting orphans, without regard to whether they had been part of the tribe that she was a member of or part of the group that killed them. And I see things like that in Rwanda all the time, where people reaching across the divides. I saw two neighbors holding hands. Two women. One of them lost her husband and brother in the genocide, the other's husband was in jail awaiting war crimes tribe, war crimes trial for doing it. You just see this over and over again."
Lauer: "And so many examples in the book. Everything from a six-year-old boy who cleans up beaches to the, the story that we talk so much about, Osceola McCarty who's a cleaning woman who put aside so much of her earnings throughout her life and ended up giving away something like 60 percent of her earnings-"
Clinton: "To the scholarship, scholarships-"
Lauer: "-to scholarship fund. I'm curious. When you think about giving and going back to money for a second. When you think about giving and making a difference do you ever think about how much money is in politics? In political contributions, in lobbying, and wouldn't it be a great idea if we took, even half of that money, that's spent by corporations and special interests trying to influence politics and, and dedicated it to changing the world for the better?"
Clinton: "It would be a good idea but in order to do it, we either have to have free television advertising or publicly-financed campaigns."
Lauer: "Or a little of both. What about a lobbying tax? If you're gonna spend a certain amount of money lobbying for a special interest cause, you have to match that amount of money by giving it to help education or to fight AIDS?"
Clinton: "Well that's not, that's not a bad idea. I, when I was President, we removed the tax deduction for lobbying expenses because I didn't think the taxpayers should be subsidizing that as an ordinary business expense. After all they were trying to get political decisions made. Even though lobbyist groups I liked, you know, for the consumer groups and others, I just didn't, if they weren't, if they were for-profit organizations I didn't think they should be able to deduct that. But, keep in mind, there, enormous amount of money is given in this country and I'm trying to get more given. Probably about 2.5 percent of our national income is given by people. Far more than we spend on political campaigns. But I think we can do a lot better."
Lauer: "Let me, let me ask you about politics now. And, and there's a poll that just came out in Iowa that, that deals with your wife. And when, when people there were asked about who they respect most and who they trust most in the areas of leadership, handling of Iraq, protecting against terrorism, Hillary Clinton ranked tops out of four candidates. When they asked the people in Iowa, who do you like? She ranked fourth out of four candidates. Now this has got to be something that puzzles you, not only as a keen political observer, but as a husband. Why do you think, when asked on a number of occasions, people simply say they're not sure if they like Hillary Clinton?"
Clinton: "Well because she's the only person running, who for 15 years, has been regularly hit by the Swift boat tactics of the Republicans. The first year when I ran for president, the eight years I served, the six years she was in the Senate. I guess 16 years now. None of the others have been subject to that. They will be if one of them is nominated."
Lauer: "But it seems that personality, it, it doesn't seem about policy, it doesn't seem about ideology. It seems that there's something in her personality, people are saying they're not comfortable with."
Clinton: "Yes, but it's something they've been preconditioned to think about by 17, 16 years of attacks. The reason I know this is true, I have two pieces of evidence for you. When she ran for reelection in New York she carried 58 of the 62 counties, 36 of the 40 counties President Bush carried in 2004 with 60 percent of the vote."
Lauer: "So you're saying she can reach across party lines?"
Clinton: "Yeah, I know she can. And they like her because they know her not what they have been told about her. In Arkansas, a red state, that I'm the only person that's carried it twice since Franklin Roosevelt and it's clearly red state. She is well ahead of all the Republicans, all of them, including our former governor. Why? Because she lived there 18 years. They know her, not the cartoon that's been presented. I hear people, all the time, say, you know, her friends, I saw her best friend in Chicago, that she grew up with, the other day. And I said, 'Do you ever have the feeling that they're talking about somebody you're not familiar with?' She said, 'All the time. They just don't know her. And as soon as they do, they'll feel the same way about her that I do.'"
Lauer: "Let's talk about electability and recently you called this issue a canard and not worth a hill of beans. But you hear very often, President Clinton, that, that your wife probably is a shoe-in for the nomination of the Democratic Party but then is gonna have a tough time winning the general election, perhaps because of what we were just talking about, that personality issue."
Clinton: "No but I disagree with that."
Lauer: "Why don't you think there's merit to that theory, that she could have a tough time in the general election?"
Clinton: "I think she'll have a more difficult time winning the primary."
Lauer: "Why?"
Clinton: "Because I think, because people like you, ask questions like this and Democrats want to win the election. And because, not that there's anything wrong with the question, but what happens is, keep in mind when I was nominated on June the second, 1992, I was running third in the polls. Six weeks later I was first and never lost the lead. Why? Because independent voters and people who don't like hearing all these negative attacks think you're polarizing if someone attacks you, not if you attack someone else."
Lauer: "Yeah one of the big differences back in '91, '92 is there [was] a lot larger group of undecided voters, at this stage game, than there are right now."
Clinton: "Well I, you know, I don't know there was maybe 10 percent undecided but in the latest national polls, I saw, she was defeating all the Republicans, number one. Number two, in the latest state polls she was 10 points ahead of Mayor Giuliani in Florida. She was winning in Kentucky. She's way ahead in Arkansas. So in other words she's ahead in many states that Senator Kerry and Vice President Gore lost. So I think the data doesn't support that. But the main thing is the American people are fundamentally fair-minded. So as soon as the Republicans and the Democrats pick their nominee the independent voters will take a fresh look at both of them."
Lauer: "There's another major difference between you running for president in '91 and 92 and your wife running now and that is that you were the upstart candidate back then. You were somewhat unknown and now her opponents, in the Democratic Party, are painting Hillary Clinton as the establishment candidate. Let me play you something she said recently, because there's been a debate between Senator Clinton and, and Senator Obama about experience versus change. Let me play you what your wife said on Monday."
Hillary Clinton: "Some people think you have to choose between change and experience. Well, with me, you don't have to choose. I have spent my entire life fighting for change."
Lauer: "Can she have it both ways? Can, can she go out there as the candidate of experience and eight years in the White House with you and her years in the Senate and also say she's the candidate of change?"
Clinton: "Well sure, because by definition, we would change the policies that President Bush had followed. We disagreed with him. And she has proved an astonishing ability to work in the Senate and get things done. And keep in mind, that's important, because we can't pass health care reform, we can't pass energy reform, which I think is the key to creating jobs unless we get some Republican votes. We have to have 60 votes for anything in the budget to pass in the Senate. So I think that experience is the key to change. I think that one of the reasons that I was effective as president when I came in was that I was the senior governor in America. I was the young upstart on the national scene but I had worlds of experience that was highly relevant to the challenges America faced at the time. I don't think experience is a bad thing. And, you know, they, they often use President, they, Cheney and Rumsfeld and they say, 'Well if experience counted, look,' you know, they say this to Democratic audiences. But that's like saying that because all malpractice is committed by doctors, next time you need surgery you should go to an auto mechanic or someone else. I don't think it's a good argument."
Lauer: "Let me ask you about Senator Larry Craig. He resigned last week, amid a scandal. He plead guilty to disorderly conduct charges stemming from a gay sex sting in an airport in Minneapolis. Now his office says he may want to rethink that resignation. First, let's start there. Can he survive? Based on what you know about Washington and what you know about political scandals, can he survive?"
Clinton: "Well he's legally entitled to the rest of his term. So unless-"
Lauer: "But for all intents and purposes can he survive?"
Clinton: "Unless they vote to expel him, which they can do, that's a judgment, you know, that's something that he and the Republicans will have to work out."
Lauer: "Were, were you surprised at how quickly key Republicans pushed him overboard? People like John McCain and Hoekstra and, and Mitch McConnell and, and Mitt Romney?"
Clinton: "Well maybe he was carrying a little of the baggage for, you know, they, they did, they decided to say nothing about Senator Vitter and then they decided to say everything about Senator Craig that, I don't know, why they made the decisions they did but it's really a, this should be viewed, on the one hand, as a personal matter. A challenge for Senator Craig and his family and I don't even know what the facts are. I know what he says, I know what the prosecutors say. I saw what, all of you, put on the media. But I think the, you know, on that level, I think we should let him work that out. And then on the political level, it's really up to the Republicans. They'll determine what happens here."
Lauer: "Let me read you something about Iraq. On Monday, your wife said this, she said, 'As soon as I'm president I will call the joint chiefs together, my Secretary of Defense, my security advisers, and give them a very simple directive. Start planning now to bring them home as soon as we responsibly can.' I'm struck by the fact, I'm curious. Is that all that different from what President Bush is saying? He's saying when security on the ground can be sustained, when political progress-"
Clinton: "Oh yes, very different."
Lauer: "-can sustain that security, then I'll talk about bringing the troops home. What's the difference?"
Clinton: "Because that's not security she's talking about. She's talking about the security of our troops. For example, it's not all that easy to withdraw from a war situation. If you look at what happened to the Russians when they withdrew from Afghanistan, they did it very rapidly and hundreds of Russian troops were killed on the way out of the country because they presented themselves as targets. And what, the reason she's been pushing so hard for the Pentagon, right now, to have a plan for withdrawal, is she says, rightly so, 'Okay the President can disagree with me about when we should withdraw. I think we should to begin withdraw right now. But whenever we withdraw we've got to have a plan because otherwise a lot of our people will be killed and wounded who shouldn't be."
Lauer: "And, and your, and Hillary doesn't believe that the President has a plan to protect the troops upon withdrawal?"
Clinton: "Well the Pentagon has acknowledged as much. That's why she's pushing them to plan for it. If they have, they certainly haven't discussed it with the country. And the important thing here is to have a plan. Now I personally think we have no choice but to take some troops out of there this year because we don't have enough ground forces to meet any kind of unforeseen challenge to our national security. The Army, the Marine Corps, the National Guard and Reserves are all over-stressed. The Navy is training in infantry tactics. And, and so we're going to have a real problem maintaining our military unless there is a withdrawal this year. And we got a problem maintaining our mission in Afghanistan."
Lauer: "Former President Bill Clinton. Can you stick around for two-and-a-half more hours? I got a lot more to ask you."
Clinton: "I'd love to-."
Lauer: "Yeah."
Clinton: "-I'm proud of this book."
Lauer: "The book is called Giving: How Each of Us Can Change The World. President Clinton, thanks for being here."
Clinton: "Thank you, Matt."
