On Monday's CNN Tonight, Buck Sexton of The Blaze exposed the left's special treatment of the Islamic faith, after liberal commentator Marc Lamont Hill attacked Bill Maher for his views on Islam. Hill claimed that "Islam is premised on some very basic fundamental values that are in line with what America articulates as its own value." He continued by asserting if "you have an investment in sharia law means you're somehow a radical, or that you're necessarily anti-growth, anti-democracy, anti-modern — it's just not true."
Sexton countered by underlining that a "large portion" of Muslims subscribe to "ideas that, under normal circumstances, would be considered bigoted by American liberals. In the case of Islam, there's a lot of excuse making....And I think it's because they've...accepted Islam as part of the victimology class in this country that is, therefore, protected, and is above and beyond criticism." [video below]
Host Don Lemon brought Hill and Sexton for their take on Maher's latest slam of liberals regarding the issue of Islam. The HBO host asserted, "This is what liberals don't want to recognize. You may be from a country — as there are many, many Muslim countries — that either have sharia law or want sharia law. Those values are not our values. This idea that, somehow, we do share values — that all religions are alike — is bull (expletive deleted)."
Lemon turned to the BET News host first for his response. Unsurprisingly, Hill went on the offensive against Maher:
MARC LAMONT HILL, HOST, BET NEWS: Bill Maher seems to get this Islam question wrong all the time. Islam is premised on some very basic fundamental values that are in line with what America articulates as its own values — what the West articulates as its own values — questions of justice; questions of morality; questions of ethics; even questions of monotheism — and I'm not to say — that's not to say everyone has to be a monotheist — but certainly, Islam is in line with that, as well — questions of democracy and fairness. These are all things that Islam does deal with.
The question of sharia law is much more complicated than Bill Maher would like to acknowledge. Sharia law is about — is about a range of things. It is not applied in every country in every way. So, to say that, somehow, because you have an investment in sharia law means you're somehow a radical, or that you're necessarily anti — anti-growth, anti-democracy, anti-modern — it's just not true.
Sexton then took many liberals to task for their political correctness on Islam:
BUCK SEXTON, NATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR, THE BLAZE: Well, I have to say that I think it's even more accurate to point out that there are ideas within Islam that are very popular within Islam that — they don't necessarily have a large portion of all Islamic communities from countries around the world — but we are talking about in the tens of millions; and, in some cases, in the hundreds of millions — that aren't just at odds with American values, but are more specifically at odds with liberal values in this country — ideas about the rights of women, the rights of same-sex marriage. These are places where you would think that liberals particularly would be up in arms and very critical of the prevalence of these ideas — of these ideas that, under normal circumstances, would be considered bigoted by American liberals.
In the case of Islam, there's a lot of excuse making. There's a lot of apologies offered all the time. And I think it's because they've, sort of, accepted Islam as part of the victimology class in this country that is, therefore, protected, and is above and beyond criticism. There are ideas about apostasy; there are ideas about the role of women; there are ideas, as I said, about — about homosexuals — there are ideas about all kinds of things in Islam that millions and millions of people around the world believe that are very much at odds with modernity; and if we don't address that and understand that, I don't under — I don't see how this can ever actually get better. And I don't think sweeping it under the rug helps anybody, particularly the moderates within the Islamic faith that we're so concerned — or, at least, we pretend to be in this country — so concerned with constantly trying to prop up and help.
Lemon followed up with Hill by bringing up a recent poll recent from the left-leaning Public Religion Research Institute that found that "a majority of Americans — I think it's 56 percent — believe the values of Islam are at odds with American values. And...this was before the Paris attacks." The CNN anchor asked, "What do you think is driving these numbers, Marc?" The liberal guest replied by following the example of the New York Times's Nicholas Kristof and Chris Cuomo from earlier in November: "Xenophobia, a lack of information, a media machine that is committed to misrepresenting the Islamic community."
Hill also pointed out that "if you were to poll America about homosexuality twenty years ago, they would have had a different vision. If you were to poll America about interracial marriage 70 years ago, you'd have a different vision." He continued that on "the homosexuality point, again, you could poll conservative Christians in this country right now — you can go to a Ben Carson rally — and find similar numbers. It doesn't mean that the faith itself is the problem. What we have is...an ideological issue that is being smuggled into a conversation about Islam — and therefore, being used to smear Islam — rather than to recognize that it, like all other faiths, has problems, but at its core, is not the problem."
Sexton replied to this with unleashing a barrage at the left's moral equivalency on Islam versus other religions (especially Christianity):
SEXTON: ...Now, look, Marc, I think it's important that you brought up other religious traditions, because there is this, sort of, root fallacy within American liberalism and the American left that all religions more or less have some problems — that they're all more or less the same — and that's just, frankly, not true. I mean, there aren't a lot of Unitarians or Quakers running around lopping off heads in public squares. We know this. We can just turn on the news. We can see what's being written in newspapers around the world.
There also is only one faith tradition right now that absolutely refuse to allow criticism in the public square — or anywhere, for that matter — of its basic tenets, and does so with the threat of force. And it very specifically says, you will be killed if you criticize our faith. And it's a threat that has to be taken seriously, because they've done it. They've done it to bloggers in Bangladesh. They've done it to journalists all over the world. They did it to Theo van Gogh.
So, this is different, and I think that we need to recognize that and stop trying to play this very false moral equivalency. It's dangerous; it undermines the moderates in the Muslim world; it pretends that these problems are not as broad as they are — and they are very broad. There is a regressivism that is particular to the Islamic faith that is not particular to other faiths, and we need to address this and empower the moderates.
It should be pointed out that Hill replied to Sexton's "root fallacy" retort by citing how he "can point to Baha'i; I can point to Sufi; I can to point to a range of Islamic traditions that have never had a record of terrorism or extremism." However, Bahai'i is actually a separate religion (with roots in Shia Islam) that has been persecuted across the Islamic world since its founding in the 19th century.
The full transcript of the Marc Lamont Hill/Buck Sexton segment from the November 23, 2015 edition of CNN Tonight:
DON LEMON: So Bill Maher is never one to hold back on his opinions — especially when it concerns religion — coming down hard on Islam this time.
I want to talk about this with Buck Sexton and Marc Lamont Hill. Both gentlemen join me now. So, I'd like to show you something that Bill Maher said this weekend. It was actually Friday on his HBO show, Real Time. He was arguing that Muslim values are at odds with Western values. Listen.
BILL MAHER (from HBO's Real Time With Bill Maher): If you are in this religion, you probably do have values that are at odds. This is what liberals don't want to recognize. You may be from a country — as there are many, many Muslim countries — that either have sharia law or want sharia law. Those values are not our values. This idea that, somehow, we do share values — that all religions are alike — is bull (expletive deleted).
[CNN Graphic: "Bill Maher On Islam: Maher: Muslim Values 'Are Not Our Values'"]
LEMON: Marc, do you agree with that?
MARC LAMONT HILL, HOST, BET NEWS: Bill Maher seems to get this Islam question wrong all the time. Islam is premised on some very basic fundamental values that are in line with what America articulates as its own values — what the West articulates as its own values — questions of justice; questions of morality; questions of ethics; even questions of monotheism — and I'm not to say — that's not to say everyone has to be a monotheist — but certainly, Islam is in line with that, as well — questions of democracy and fairness. These are all things that Islam does deal with.
The question of sharia law is much more complicated than Bill Maher would like to acknowledge. Sharia law is about — is about a range of things. It is not applied in every country in every way. So, to say that, somehow, because you have an investment in sharia law means you're somehow a radical, or that you're necessarily anti — anti-growth, anti-democracy, anti-modern — it's just not true.
LEMON: Buck Sexton?
BUCK SEXTON, NATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR, THE BLAZE: Well, I have to say that I think it's even more accurate to point out that there are ideas within Islam that are very popular within Islam that — they don't necessarily have a large portion of all Islamic communities from countries around the world — but we are talking about in the tens of millions; and, in some cases, in the hundreds of millions — that aren't just at odds with American values, but are more specifically at odds with liberal values in this country — ideas about the rights of women, the rights of same-sex marriage. These are places where you would think that liberals particularly would be up in arms and very critical of the prevalence of these ideas — of these ideas that, under normal circumstances, would be considered bigoted by American liberals.
In the case of Islam, there's a lot of excuse making. There's a lot of apologies offered all the time. And I think it's because they've, sort of, accepted Islam as part of the victimology class in this country that is, therefore, protected, and is above and beyond criticism. There are ideas about apostasy; there are ideas about the role of women; there are ideas, as I said, about — about homosexuals — there are ideas about all kinds of things in Islam that millions and millions of people around the world believe that are very much at odds with modernity; and if we don't address that and understand that, I don't under — I don't see how this can ever actually get better. And I don't think sweeping it under the rug helps anybody, particularly the moderates within the Islamic faith that we're so concerned — or, at least, we pretend to be in this country — so concerned with constantly trying to prop up and help.
LEMON: And Marc, he [Maher] did reference this poll — the Public Religion Research Institute — which says that a majority of Americans — I think it's 56 percent — believe the values of Islam are at odds with American values. And, you know, this was before the Paris attacks. So, what then — what do you think is driving these numbers, Marc?
[CNN Graphic: "Sept/ 11/Oct. 4, Public Religion Research Institute: Islam Is At Odds With American Values: Agree, 56%; Sampling Error: +/- 2.6% Pts"]
HILL: Xenophobia, a lack of information, a media machine that is committed to misrepresenting the Islamic community — I mean, if you were to look, for example, ten years ago, prior to President Obama's presidency, when they did polls on Mormonism, and whether they'd want a Mormon president — people said we'd rather have a black president than a Mormon president. People said a Mormon president was unimaginable because it wasn't mainline Christianity because it wasn't in line with Western values. Then, we got to meet Mitt Romney. Then, we got to meet John Huntsman. We got to meet extraordinary people who represented their faith in a very positive way, and we learned more about them, and the polls changed. If you were to poll America about homosexuality twenty years ago, they would have had a different vision. If you were to poll America about interracial marriage 70 years ago, you'd have a different vision. So, I don't appeal to polls to make sense of what's true or not.
And as far as saying — well, you know, Muslims believe this about apostasy, or Muslims believe this about homosexuality — to the homosexuality point, again, you could poll conservative Christians in this country right now — you can go to a Ben Carson rally — and find similar numbers. It doesn't mean that the faith itself is the problem. What we have is a political issue; what we have is a cultural issue; and an ideological issue that is being smuggled into a conversation about Islam — and therefore, being used to smear Islam — rather than to recognize that it, like all other faiths, has problems, but at its core, is not the problem.
LEMON: Buck, he's saying pointing out the extremes is actually problematic. I think that's basically, what you're saying — right?
HILL: With a little more nuance, but yeah—
SEXTON: But it's not just the — it's not just the Islamic State we're talking about here. When you look at polling in countries around the world — Pew polling — of what the prescribed punishment is, for example, for adultery; for apostasy — these are not fringe beliefs when you're talking about many millions of people; and, in some cases, majorities in very large countries — places like Pakistan; places like Afghanistan, where apostasy — they do believe is, in fact, punishable by death — or, at least something that would imprison you for a long period of time.
Now, look, Marc, I think it's important that you brought up other religious traditions, because there is this, sort of, root fallacy within American liberalism and the American left that all religions more or less have some problems — that they're all more or less the same — and that's just, frankly, not true. I mean, there aren't a lot of Unitarians or Quakers running around lopping off heads in public squares. We know this. We can just turn on the news. We can see what's being written in newspapers around the world—
HILL: (laughs) Yeah, but—
SEXTON: There also is only one faith tradition right now that absolutely refuse to allow criticism in the public square — or anywhere, for that matter — of its basic tenets, and does so with the threat of force. And it very specifically says, you will be killed if you criticize our faith. And it's a threat that has to be taken seriously, because they've done it. They've done it to bloggers in Bangladesh. They've done it to journalists all over the world. They did it to Theo van Gogh.
So, this is different, and I think that we need to recognize that and stop trying to play this very false moral equivalency. It's dangerous; it undermines the moderates in the Muslim world; it pretends that these problems are not as broad as they are — and they are very broad. There is a regressivism that is particular to the Islamic faith that is not particular to other faiths, and we need to address this and empower the moderates.
LEMON: Last word, Marc.
HILL: Wow. It's a lot to respond to. One, you take the most extremely liberal — and you could argue, not even religious tradition — and when you point to a Unitarian church — and you compare it to the most extreme on the other end of an Islamic tradition — I can point to Baha'i; I can point to Sufi; I can to point to a range of Islamic traditions that have never had a record of terrorism or extremism. So let's not play with the extremes here.
Again, if you — also, when you look at the Pew polling, which is, perhaps, the most flawed poll of Islamic radicalism ever committed — as a social scientist, I'll tell you — you'd recognize that within these countries, it's a much more nuanced conversation about what it means to have sharia law; what it means to punish apostasy. Also, if you say that Muslim countries are so silenced and so — and so repressed that they don't have free thought; and then, you appeal to a poll where they're asked to say what they think about the state religion, you may come up with results that don't reflect what people on the ground really think, and what Muslims on the ground really do. There is a much more wide range of Islamic identities and Islamic practices than what we see. It's a very small slice of a — of a community or of a population that is being blamed for a — or rather, that is committing the acts; and then, being applied to the whole range of people—
SEXTON: I just want to say: having spent time, Marc, in Iraq; in Afghanistan; and other places in the Middle East, sharia—
HILL: As have I; as have I—
SEXTON: No. I understand that. But then, you and I both know that the complexities you're talking about with sharia is often brutality. This isn't like the nuance of the Founding Fathers — that in fact—
HILL: I disagree—
SEXTON: Well, then — well, then, we need to take a trip together to Saudi Arabia and see how they handle things over there—
LEMON: Okay, guys, that's it—
HILL: Right. But then, let's also take a trip to Turkey. Let's take a trip to the West Bank—
SEXTON: Let's take the trip to Turk—
HILL: Let's take a trip to Egypt; and when we do that, we'll see that sharia law is re-imagined in a very particular way around crime; around marriage—LEMON: I've got to go.
