NPR’s Michel Martin guest hosted PBS’s Amanpour and Company on Wednesday and described her guest, Tareq Baconi, as a Hamas historian which she was careful to distinguish from a “Hamas apologist.” However, Baconi is a Hamas apologist, as he absurdly described Israel as “fascist” while, even more absurdly, saying Hamas is no longer anti-Semitic.
Beginning with Hamas’s charter, Martin observed, “A key point of difference, though, between Hamas and the PLO is that the PLO has recognized the right of Israel to exist and Hamas never has. And the whole point of Hamas’s charter, where Hamas makes clear its refusal to recognize the state of Israel.”
Martin also wondered, “the text has been replete with anti-Semitic references built on stereotypes about, sort of, the Jewish people. I mean, how, how are we to look at that? I mean, obviously, the way that a number of analysts look at that is that this is A) it is blood lust, and B) that it’s kind of a fantasy that Israel will be, kind of, wiped off the face of the earth. And so I’m just – I’d just like to hear your take on that.”
Baconi tried to make two points, “So first, in terms of the PLO’S recognition of the state of Israel, we have to remember that before the PLO recognized the state of Israel, it too engaged in armed resistance. And it too was deemed to be a terrorist organization by the U.S. and other members of the international community. And the demand on it was that it would renounce armed resistance and recognize the state of Israel in order to establish the state of Palestine.”
As Baconi was speaking, viewers could see a picture of the 2000 Camp David Summit with Bill Clinton, Ehud Barak, and Yasser Arafat, which was fitting because after Barak was prepared to give Arafat almost all of what he wanted, Israel had to go through the Second Intifada, so it is not as if recognizing the PLO has ended terrorism against Israel.
However, for Baconi, none of that matters:
Fast forward three decades, and Palestinians don’t have a state. Palestinians have more entrenched occupation. We have an Israeli regime that is more fascist than it’s ever been in history that’s expanding its colonial violence against Palestinians in the West Bank in Jerusalem and Palestinian citizens, as well as tightening the blockade. So the idea that the recognition of Israel has – would pave the way for Palestinian rights – has completely been undermined by the way the international community has refused to hold Israel accountable.
Before anyone could point out the blockade exists in conjunction with Egypt, for legitimate purposes, Baconi insisted that Hamas is actually willing to deal, terrorism is just how it gets leverage:
And so the second point then is Hamas. Hamas sees the PLO’S experience. It understands that the recognition of Israel is not going to lead to Palestinian rights because we have that history. We see that track record. And so, the movement rather believes that the best way to secure Palestinian liberation is through armed resistance. And at the negotiating table, which Hamas does not dismiss, it openly talks about possibly negotiating. But that has to come from a position of force.
How in the world is murdering babies “armed resistance”?
Hamas talks about things like negotiating so useful idiots in the West will repeat them, not because it actually believes them. Speaking of which, on Hamas’s anti-Semitism, Baconi claimed, “Now, the movement, since its early inception has evolved quite significantly. And in 2017, it issued a new document, which it sought to replace its original charter. And in that document, it openly distinguishes between Jews and Zionists and articulates that its project of liberation is against Zionist colonialism and Palestine not against Jews as a religion or people.”
Of all the people in the world who would be surprised that Hamas has moved past anti-Semitism and calls for Israel’s total destruction, Hamas itself would probably be at the top of the list.
Here is a transcript for the October 25 show:
PBS Amanpour and Company
10/25/2023
11:32 PM ET
MICHEL MARTIN: A key point of difference, though, between Hamas and the PLO is that the PLO has recognized the right of Israel to exist and Hamas never has. And the whole point of Hamas’s charter, where Hamas makes clear its refusal to recognize the state of Israel. And also the text has been replete with anti-Semitic references built on stereotypes about, sort of, the Jewish people. I mean, how, how are we to look at that? I mean, obviously, the way that a number of analysts look at that is that this is A) it is blood lust, and B) that it’s kind of a fantasy that Israel will be, kind of, wiped off the face of the earth. And so I’m just – I’d just like to hear your take on that.
TAREQ BACONI: Yeah. So there’s two points that you’re raising here, both of them very important. So first, in terms of the PLO’S recognition of the state of Israel, we have to remember that before the PLO recognized the state of Israel, it too engaged in armed resistance. And it too was deemed to be a terrorist organization by the U.S. and other members of the international community. And the demand on it was that it would renounce armed resistance and recognize the state of Israel in order to establish the state of Palestine.
Fast forward three decades, and Palestinians don’t have a state. Palestinians have more entrenched occupation. We have an Israeli regime that is more fascist than it’s ever been in history that’s expanding its colonial violence against Palestinians in the West Bank in Jerusalem and Palestinian citizens, as well as tightening the blockade. So the idea that the recognition of Israel has – would pave the way for Palestinian rights – has completely been undermined by the way the international community has refused to hold Israel accountable.
And so the second point then is Hamas. Hamas sees the PLO’S experience. It understands that the recognition of Israel is not going to lead to Palestinian rights because we have that history. We see that track record. And so, the movement rather believes that the best way to secure Palestinian liberation is through armed resistance. And at the negotiating table, which Hamas does not dismiss, it openly talks about possibly negotiating. But that has to come from a position of force.
I just want to say one point about Hamas’ anti-Semitism. Hamas’s charter was anti-Semitic. The movement engaged in awful tropes around the Jewish people, including dealing with texts like the Elders of Zion and in dealing with stereotypical tropes around the Jewish people controlling the media and controlling world powers. Now, the movement, since its early inception has evolved quite significantly. And in 2017, it issued a new document, which it sought to replace its original charter. And in that document, it openly distinguishes between Jews and Zionists and articulates that its project of liberation is against Zionist colonialism and Palestine not against Jews as a religion or people.
