Monday's Amanpour & Co., airing on PBS and CNN International, launched a tag-team, three-pronged personal assault on three recent conservative leaders: Boris Johnson, Donald Trump and Silvio Berlusconi. Host Christiane Amanpour interviewed Alastair Campbell, the self-impressed former Director Of Communications for Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair, about his new book with a plaintive title and a call for leftist activism, But What Can I Do?
Amanpour asked about the downfall of former Conservative Prime Minister Boris Johnson, and Campbell smeared the enormously popular politician as a cult leader:
CAMPBELL: ….And I think the other thing that's happened with Johnson is that people have realized that this is a guy who should never have been near the bottom of the political pile, let alone the top. And I think he's now got his little cult around him, he's got people who will always say that he's a great guy, he's got people who are always media enablers. I think our media is largely culpable in his rise. So, yeah, I think he's absolutely done. He's finished.
Campbell dutifully threw Trump into the mix.
CAMPBELL: ….So, Trump probably, even now, is thinking, I think, I can probably get away with this. Boris Johnson is somebody who's got away with stuff his whole life, both in his private life and his political life. So, you can get away with a lot. I think -- what I really, really hope, it's funny how these things sometimes, you get these historical moments, it is quite interesting, you think that Trump and Johnson, literally on the same day, were attacking institutional bodies which had decided that they had offended the norms and conventions by which they should abide. In Trump's case, the law, in Johnson's case, the rules of parliament.
The liberal press’s favorite enemy, newspaper and Fox News Channel baron Rupert Murdoch, made an appearance. Amanpour accused Murdoch and Co. of weaponizing coverage to help populist politicians (never mind that Amanpour works for PBS and CNN, networks that weaponize their coverage for the left).
Amanpour solemnly intoned: This is where we -- I want to just stop you a second, I want to go through some what you've just said. Because in your book, you do say this about Berlusconi. You say, when it comes to the use of post-truth strategies in Western democracies, perhaps the first big mover was the media magnate Silvio Berlusconi. So, again, populism, I guess, was his legacy. Do you really -- he had his own media, Trump had Fox and the Rupert Murdoch media and everything else. So, does Boris Trump -- Boris Trump! -- Boris Johnson here has a lot of the -- Murdoch media and the other populist media. You know, they've successfully used this and weaponized it for many, many years….
Later, Campbell hailed President Biden in laughable terms, while calling Trump, Johnson, and Berlusconi “charlatans,” citing a former Canadian politician “making the point that actually Joe Biden, by any rational assessment, is doing a pretty amazing job, considering the politics of that country at the moment….”
Amanpour the journalist flatly declared one political stance beyond fixing (and it wasn’t leftism) during her flattering interview with a fellow liberal:
And there's been years and years of populism. So, how do we fix it? That's the frame of your book. Finally, how do people fix this?
This grossly, ideologically biased segment was brought to you in part by Mutual of America.
A transcript is available, click “Expand” to read:
PBS and CNN International
June 12, 2023
AMANPOUR: Meanwhile, here in the U.K., a different kind of reckoning for Former Prime Minister Boris Johnson. He resigned as a member of parliament on Friday as he faces a damning report concluding that he lied about his involvement in parties during the COVID lockdowns. Alastair Campbell, host a very popular bipartisan political podcast, and he was director of communications for Prime Minister Tony Blair. He also has a new book out called, "But What Can I Do? Why Politics has Gone so Wrong and How You Can Help Fix It." He's joining me here at the studio. Before we get to why it's gone so wrong and how people -- ordinary people can help fix it, let me ask you about the substance of these political earthquakes that are happening. I mean, elected leaders facing really, really serious censure. How bad is it for Boris Johnson?
ALASTAIR CAMPBELL, FORMER DOWNING STREET DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS AND AUTHOR, "BUT WHAT CAN I DO?": Oh, he -- I think -- and Boris Johnson --
AMANPOUR: Is he done?
CAMPBELL: I think he's finished. I think there's no way back for him at all. Look, you look at somebody like Donald Trump and you can sort of see a way back just -- but I think it's going to be very, very difficult because Americas are even more polarized than we are, I would say. But Johnson has -- he's gone full Trump now. He's absolutely gone full Trump. So, the report that he resigned over is a report by the Privileges
Committee, which is dominated by his own party, the conservative party. They've clearly gone through all the evidence, concluded that he lied to parliament, which is a resignation offense, and he's just gone full Trump in saying, it's kangaroo court, they don't -- they're not interested in the truth, et cetera. And I think the other thing that's happened with Johnson is that people have realized that this is a guy who should never have been near the bottom of the political pile, let alone the top. And I think he's now got his little cult around him, he's got people who will always say that he's a great guy, he's got people who are always media enablers. I think our media is largely culpable in his rise. So, yes, I think he's absolutely done. He's finished.
AMANPOUR: So, his crime, so to speak, it's not, you know, a federal crime like that with which Donald Trump is being indicted. What is -- given that Donald Trump has got so many legal cases mounting up against him, and this one is particularly serious. And you've read, haven't you, you've read on it.
CAMPBELL: I have, yes.
AMANPOUR: What did you take away from that?
CAMPBELL: I took away the detail. I took away the sense of how do they even think that this could be the right thing to do. I didn't take away a witch hunt at all. I took away a pretty detailed case that read, quite compellingly. And if I were Trump, I'd be looking a little bit scared.
AMANPOUR: Well, I do want to play a soundbite from his own attorney general, Former Attorney General William Barr, who talked over the weekend to Fox News about kind of saying what you just summed up.
CAMPBELL: OK.
WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: If even half of it is true, then he's toast. I mean, it's a pretty -- it's a very detailed indictment
and it's a very, very damning. And this idea of presenting Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt, is ridiculous.
AMANPOUR: So, let's drill down on that, because very few members of the Republican Party speak like William Barr. We've got Chris Christie a little bit, but certainly we have Mitt Romney, but all the others, including those who are running for the presidency on the Republican side, are calling it a politically motivated trial. So, Donald Trump is doing that, Boris Johnson was doing that, playing the martyr. How successful can that be today? How successful might it be?
CAMPBELL: Well, you said in the introduction, Silvio Berlusconi died today. Bizarrely, in the book that I've written, I cite him as, in a sense, the
author of this approach to politics, the so-called three P's, populism, polarization, post-trust. Johnson is opposed post-truth politician. Trump
is a populist, polarizing, post-truth politician. Berlusconi was a populist, polarizing, post-trust politician.
So, you'd say for Berlusconi, OK, he's ended his life and his career out of power, but this is a guy who probably should've gone to jail quite a few
times. And yet --
AMANPOUR: He was convicted of --
CAMPBELL: Exactly.
AMANPOUR: -- finally, of tax --
CAMPBELL: Right. But -- so, this is a guy who got away with an awful lot. So, Trump probably, even now, is thinking, I think, I can probably get away
with this. Boris Johnson is somebody who's got away with stuff his whole life, both in his private life and his political life. So, you can get away
with a lot.
I think -- what I really, really hope, it's funny how these things sometimes you get these historical moments, it is quite interesting, you think that Trump and Johnson, literally on the same day, were attacking institutional bodies which had decided that they had offended the norms and conventions by which they should abide. In Trump's case, the law, in Johnson's case, the rules of parliament. And then, literally two days later, Berlusconi dies. And you -- there's a part of me thinking, is this a kind of inflection point? Might it be an inflection point? And, you know, I hope so, because I really do worry, when you think -- I mean, 50 years ago, Nixon. OK. Nixon gets hounded out of office on the back of something that Trump would probably consider barely a misdemeanor what was done. Trump gets -- loses a case for a serious sexual offense, and the medias out there are saying, does this help or does this (INAUDIBLE) campaign free election? This is where we -- I want to just stop you a second. I mean, I want to go through some what you've just said. Because in your book, you do say this about Berlusconi. You say, when it comes to the use about post- truth strategies in western democracies, perhaps the first big mover was the media magnate Silvio Berlusconi. So, again, populism, I guess, was his legacy. Do you really -- he had his own media, Trump had Fox and the Rupert Murdoch media and everything else. So, does Boris Trump -- Boris Trump -- Boris Johnson here has a lot of the --
CAMPBELL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- Murdoch media and the other populous media. You know, they've successfully used this and weaponized it for many, many years. And you've been at this for a long, long time. Do you -- I mean, you talked about an inflection point, really?
CAMPBELL: No, I don't know. I'm simply saying that I think it's -- I do think that one of the reasons. So, you mentioned the podcast that I do with
Rory Stewart, right?AMANPOUR: A former Tory MP.
CAMPBELL: Former Tory cabinet minister.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
CAMPBELL: The numbers on it, for a U.K. podcast, are through the roof. It's regularly being the most popular, most listened to podcasts in the U.K., at a time when people are saying they're sick to death of politics and they hate politics. Likewise, you know, this morning I was in the school talking about the book to kids who -- this group of kids showing me a picture of them out in a field reading the book, on a reading book, about politics. There's a hunger and there's a yearning. Now, if we carry on producing politicians -- excuse me -- like Johnson and Trump, then I think we're going to (INAUDIBLE). If on the other hand enough people understand we do have agency, we can make change, then it can be an inflection point.
AMANPOUR: We didn't mention also that today -- or yesterday over the weekend, as well as Trump and Boris Johnson, Nicola Sturgeon, who's well
known here, obviously, around the world, and she was arrested, taken away for questioning, then released without charge.
All that to say that the U.S. may not be used to their presidents being federally charged, but around the world there is this legacy, the rule of
law matters. It's not just in this country --
CAMPBELL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- it's in another parts of Europe, in East Asia. A lot of former leaders do get held up and held accountable.
CAMPBELL: Listen, I absolutely believe that people should be held accountable. Now, I don't know the details of the -- what Nichola Surgeon
was interviewed other than what we've heard about it is to do with party funding and so forth.
But, you know, the other example of this is situations such as, for example, recent -- the election in Turkey, where the guy that actually
might have had a better chance of beating Erdogan, he's locked up, he's away, he's off the scene. So, that's going on as well.
So, I think this whole sense, the feeling that politicians have a political impunity. Trump, Johnson, Berlusconi, these guys they feel that they should
be beyond. This is what brought down Johnson in the end, designing the laws on COVID and then, clearly, breaking them. And people find that
unfathomable.
Even now, even today, our news in the U.K. is leading on this row between Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak about whether or not Rishi Sunak could've
helped Boris Johnson stick even more of his ridiculous friends and cronies into the House of Laws. I mean, we are a global joke on this front and yet,
that is him still believing he is beyond the normal rules and conventions.
AMANPOUR: So, let's play the Rishi Sunak soundbite --
CAMPBELL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- where he addressed this, and he said, yes, he might have wanted me to do it, but I wasn't prepared to do this. Here is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RISHI SUNAK, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Boris Johnson asked me to do something that I wasn't prepared to do, because I don't think it was right. That was
to, you know, either overrule the whole committee or to make promises with people. Now, I wasn't prepared to do that. As I said, I didn't think it was right. And if people don't like that, then tough.
AMANPOUR: So, he's -- I know, your Labour Party --
CAMPBELL: No. I'll tell you why I don't like that.
AMANPOUR: Yes?
CAMPBELL: Because he's pretending that he's acting out of principle. If he was acting out of principle, he would've said to Boris Johnson, I'm sorry, you're a prime minister resigning in disgrace. The idea you can put anybody into the House of Laws, I -- he has to sign off the names, Sunak. He has to send them off to our poor king (ph) and say, yes, it's marvelous that this 25-year-old intern is being put into the House of Law. So, the whole thing is absurd. So, he could've blocked the whole thing. So, I'm not quite buying that.
AMANPOUR: All right. But on a bigger level, here in the U.K., do you agree, at least, that members of the Tory Party, by and large, have not rushed toBoris Johnson's defense?
CAMPBELL: Oh, yes.
AMANPOUR: In fact, the opposite, which is not the same in the United States of America.
CAMPBELL: Correct.
AMANPOUR: And even now, we've got, you know, a graphic to show, Donald Trump still at 61 percent, his closest rival is at 23 percent, Ron DeSantis. And, up until now, he's been making a lot of money in terms of funding and donations.
CAMPBELL: Correct.
AMANPOUR: And he may even get some kind of hostile crowd, because he's calling for that.
CAMPBELL: Well, that's why I said to you earlier --
AMANPOUR: But that's not happening here?
CAMPBELL: No, and that's why said to you earlier, I don't think that we are yet anywhere near as bad a position as what's happening in the United States. I happen to think -- in fact, we just interviewed on the podcast, Michael Ignatieff, former Canadian politician. He was making the point that actually Joe Biden, by any rational assessment, is doing a pretty amazing job considering the politics of that country at the moment. Trump has got a real following, a deep following. Johnson had that following whilst he was a leader of the conservative party. But it's perfectly clear now, look, he's claiming some great establishment plot against him. He got kicked out by his colleagues, because they no longer thought he was a winner. He's now being kicked out of -- he's run from parliament because they've decided he's a liar, and you can't come back from that. But I think that's why, we in the U.K., should be very, very careful that we don't go any further down this road of populism and post-truth because that is where Trump is taking his side of the American debate.
AMANPOUR: And has been doing.
CAMPBELL: Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: And there's been years and years of populism. So, how do we fix it? That's the frame of your book. Finally, how do people fix this?
CAMPBELL: Well, I think my understanding that we can't turn away from it. So, what's the charlatans, like Trump and Berlusconi and Johnson, what they want is people to say, oh, just let them get on with it, because there's no point even thinking about it, they're all terrible, they're all the same, nothing ever changes anyway. Just let them do it and get on with your life. That way, they keep winning. So, the first thing to do, we have to understand we all have agency. We have to ask ourselves how much we care. And individuals -- that's why it's so wonderful when you go into schools and you see how much they do care, kids understand what's going wrong with the world. They understand the stuff about climate. They understand the stuff about inequality and all this populism nonsense. Now, some of them may not care, enough of them do, but they've got to step up and understand activism. The key is in the word act. It's not aboutTwitter.
AMANPOUR: Right.
CAMPBELL: It's not about your phone. It's about getting out and doing stuff and fighting for what you believe in. And get rid of these bloody charlatans.
AMANPOUR: You said it, not me. Alastair Campbell, thank you very much for being here.
CAMPBELL: Thank you.
